Andrew Revkin, NY Times go to climate guy is speaking this Tuesday evening at the University of Vermont’s Campus Center Theater. For a preview Joshua Brown of UVM spoke with Revkin on February 27th. I’ve been going back and forth whether to post about this but I just need to know, does anyone else out there find this exchange peculiar?
UVM: As a reporter, you talk to a lot of experts and researchers. What do you see as the most important unanswered questions about the science of climate change?
Revkin: The big one remains the sensitivity of the climate system to greenhouse gas build-up. We still don’t know if doubling carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases will lead to a one-and-a-half-degree or four-and-half-degree warming. That’s a huge range with hugely different consequences.
And it’s about the same range it was thirty years ago. There are many uncertainties, like what clouds do and what vapor does. It’s not game over in terms of the science by any means.
UPDATE: Joshua Brown let me know that there was a formatting issue in his original post and this below was a separate question and answer. Which negates the text below now shown with strikeouts. (Thankfully Mr. Revkin isn’t entertaining the ice is growing argument!)
UVM: I saw papers in Science, one in 2005, one in 2006, and then one recently in Nature Geosciences, that seemed to be pointing in all sorts of directions about the Antarctic ice sheet. Is it growing or shrinking?
Revkin: In a warming world, Greenland and Antarctica will lose ice. In Greenland, sea levels were four to six meters higher 130,000 years ago during the last warm interval between ice ages, so we know warmer times had less ice and higher seas, but we don’t know how quickly that will happen. And that’s where, again, you get into very high levels of uncertainty in the science.
There’s been some attempt by some activists out there to portray everything as a closed case: “we’re in a disaster zone and it’s unfolding a clear way.” That really doesn’t hold up to the data. But climate change is real.
It left me saying yeah, okay….but, but, something’s wrong with this picture. It felt like he answered the question in a straight-up way but maybe the way our President would – somehow emphasizing the obvious, or the “unknowns” (that’s Rumsfeld, sorry) and throwing in a straw man. It left me unsettled. Maybe this was a little “throw away” interview. Maybe it’s transcribed wrong. Maybe Revkin misspoke. But something’s up.
UPDATE: I was pointed to an excellent post by Joe Romm on this very sort of thing – but in a larger frame. Which leaves me to ask why does Mr. Revkin keep making the same mistake? Which leads me to sarcastically note that the UVM interview was the week before the denier’s convention in NY – so maybe Mr. Revkin was just warming up? Anyway….
Then I started at the end and worked backward.
There’s been some attempt by some activists out there to portray everything as a closed case: “we’re in a disaster zone and it’s unfolding a clear way.” That really doesn’t hold up to the data. But climate change is real.
I realize we’re supposed to be talking about the uncertainties here given the question, but isn’t this a straw man argument? I’m not aware of anyone outside of James Lovelock that is saying this is a closed case toward apocalypse – do you? There are parts of the science that are debatable and parts that are not. Given what we know now, it would be interesting to ask Mr. Revkin to draw the line between the two.
-And let’s draw a line in the ice:-
-I- -saw- -papers- -in Science,- -one in 2005, one in 2006,- -and then one recently in Nature Geosciences, – -that seemed to be pointing in all sorts of directions about the Antarctic ice sheet.- -Is it growing or shrinking? In a warming world, Greenland and Antarctica will lose ice.- -In Greenland, sea levels were four to six meters higher 130,000 years ago during the last warm interval between ice ages, so we know warmer times had less ice and higher seas, but we don’t know how quickly that will happen.- -And that’s where, again, you get into very high levels of uncertainty in the science.-
-Again, this was a question about uncertainty I admit – -but…is Mr. Revkin implying there is a legitimate debate now about whether the ice sheets are losing mass due to global warming?-
Then the sensitivity unknowns:
The big one remains the sensitivity of the climate system to greenhouse gas build-up. We still don’t know if doubling carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases will lead to a one-and-a-half-degree or four-and-half-degree warming. That’s a huge range with hugely different consequences.
And it’s about the same range it was thirty years ago. There are many uncertainties, like what clouds do and what vapor does. It’s not game over in terms of the science by any means.
Let me start with the clouds. Like much of climate science unfortunately, when there are options to resolve a question it seems more often than not it is turning out to be the worse one. It’s true clouds are still an uncertainty but the uncertainty is being lessened – in an unfortunate direction. As bluntly summarized in a February article in Science:
Greenhouse gases can directly reduce cloud cover and magnify warming.
Finally on climate sensitivity. I’m not sure if Mr. Revkin misspoke or not. But it’s my understanding that a doubling of CO2 to approximately 450ppm is generally believed to give us a 3 degree (celsius) rise. I’m not sure where the 1.5 number is coming from as it is generally understood that we are locked into at least that much right now. So it seems to me like another set of straw men. But why? Yes, he’s been prompted to talk about uncertainty, but why then throw out there that there is “a huge range of consequences.” ? It seems like another throw away line. Yes there is debate about climate sensitivity. But again the uncertainty is getting better defined, and again in the worst possible way. Jim Hansen last December revised his estimate to 350ppm as the tipping point of CO2 from 400 earlier in the year and from this mythic 450ppm number Mr. Revkin offhandedly speaks of. But there’s no context of this trending in Mr. Revkin’s analysis.
Which brings me to my overall discomfort with Mr. Revkin’s answers and why I feel compelled to post on this incidental interview. Because it betrays to me a detached gentlemanly game that is being played in the media regarding climate change. It’s like Mr. Revkin put on his Tim Russert hat and decides the best way to speak to the public is in a “he said, she said”. News flash: “he said, she said” does not inherently make uncertainty. Ironically it’s my sense that the scientists don’t share this detachment or overgeneralized uncertainty but unfortunately are constitutionally built to be reticent. Asked to expound on the primary uncertainties of climate change, the preeminent authority of the NY Times leaves one wondering if there’s any there there at all – despite his disclaimer at the end that it does really exist. If I want to have a New York Times writer treat me like he thinks I’m dim I’ll read John Tierney. Mr. Revkin, please don’t do this.
I guess for me it’s a matter of emphasis. What if the same sort of items were discussed like this:
Make Believe Revkin: Well yes, climate sensitivity is a big question at this time. We once thought it might be possible to safely double the CO2 levels but now it appears that we’ve already passed the tipping point. Once we have more precise knowledge of the sensitivity we’ll know whether it’ll be possible to stop just short of 2 degrees temperature rise and face “just” widespread drought, tens of millions of lives at risk and 20% to 30% species die-back; or whether it will approach 3 degrees rise (a more likely scenario given our lack of will to reduce emissions) where we’ll face hundreds of millions of lives at risk, accelerated ocean rise and “major” species extinctions around the world. Or who knows it could go to 4 degrees and the world basically stops being recognizable.
Yes there certainly are uncertainties.
I suggest that it would help a great deal if we could edit down to the truly meaningful uncertainties and place them in a trending context.